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Coronavirus echt gevaar?

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Covid Spread Can’t Only Be Explained by Who’s Being ‘Bad’

(Bloomberg Opinion) -- There are some weird things going on in the coronavirus data. It’s curious that cases dropped so fast, and have stayed pretty low, in the spring hot zones — New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. And why did cases remain so low in Idaho and Hawaii until recently?

The mainstream narrative is that it’s all about good behavior when cases go down — mask wearing and giving up our social lives for the greater good. And conversely, bad behavior must be what makes them go up. We talk about certain regions having the virus “under control,” as if falling cases are purely a matter of will-power. A sort of moral reasoning is filling in for evidence.

But why, then, have cases plummeted in Sweden, where mask wearing is a rarity?

This is the time to use scientific methods to understand what’s happening. The pandemic has gone on long enough to reveal patterns in the way it spreads. If it’s all about behavior, that’s a testable hypothesis. If, as a few speculate, dramatic drops in some places have something to do with growing immunity in the population, we can also turn that into a testable hypothesis.

“The issue with data is one can manipulate it to show anything you want if you have an agenda,” says YouYang Gu, an independent data scientist. Cherry picking is easy — prediction is much harder, and Gu is getting some attention for the fact that models he’s been creating since April actually forecast what’s happened with the spread of the disease in the U.S.

He recently took to Twitter to urge public health officials to apply scientific thinking. He pointed to data on Louisiana, where cases were rising earlier in the summer and seemed to level off after various counties issued mask mandates.

But breaking the data down by county, he says, revealed a different story. Mask mandates varied in their timing, but places that implemented them late saw no more cases or deaths than those that did so early. “I don’t think there’s currently enough evidence to support the fact that recent policy interventions (mask mandates, bar closures) were the main drivers behind the recent decrease in cases,” he wrote.

That’s not to say that individual behavior doesn’t matter a lot — and the cancellation of big gatherings and other potential super-spreading events is more important than ever — but there may be more factors than we know driving the bigger picture.

A few scientists are examining the possibility that previously hard-hit areas are now being affected by a buildup of immunity, even if it flies in the face of the widespread understanding that the disease has to run through at least 60% of the population to achieve so-called herd immunity. (So far, antibody tests show only some 10-20% of the U.S. population has had the disease.)

The term herd immunity is a little vague in this context. It was created to characterize the impact of immunization. It refers to the percentage of the population that must get immunized in order for a pathogen to die out — a quantity that depends on the nature of the virus, the efficacy of the vaccine and the behavior of the hosts. If natural immunity is starting to help in some places, that would suggest herd immunity is a reasonable and worthy goal of an immunization program.

But scientists have little experience applying herd immunity to a natural infection, and what understanding they have is changing. Scientists have started to investigate the possibility that there’s another critical factor here — heterogeneity in the way humans interact, and in our inherent, biological susceptibility to this disease.

In a Science paper published in June, University of Stockholm mathematician Tom Britton and colleagues calculated that herd immunity might be reached after as few as 43% of a very heterogenous population becomes infected. People mix unevenly in a way that could lead to little pockets of immunity, slowing the spread of the virus long before the world achieves herd immunity.

We may also be heterogeneous in our biology. A recent paper in Science suggests that many people who’ve never been infected with SARS-CoV-2 carry a kind of immune cell, called a T-cell, which recognizes this novel virus and may partially mitigate an infection. These cells may be left over from infections with related viruses — the coronaviruses that cause the common cold.

While scientists who authored the paper warn that it doesn’t imply that people with pre-existing T-cells can’t get infected, they leave open the possibility that it might account for some of the vast variability in symptoms.

Whatever the source of this heterogeneity, we know it exists. Most people on the contaminated cruise ship Diamond Princess remained uninfected, while others got asymptomatic infections and still others got severely ill.

Those differences can inform disease models, says statistics professor Gabriela Gomes of the University of Strathclyde in Scotland. “What we see is that infections do not occur at random, but that people who are most susceptible to infection get exposed first,” she says, leaving a pool of ever-less susceptible people behind.

So far, her predictions of the spread in the U.K., Belgium, Spain and Portugal have aligned well with reality. Her models showed small, shallow second peaks that would concentrate away from the places where the pandemic was most rampant last spring. For example, in Spain, the first outbreak was around Madrid, and now a smaller outbreak is happening around Catalonia.

She says her models keep predicting declines after the infection reached between 10% and 35% of the population. That doesn’t mean the virus has gone away — only that by her models, it won’t explode in those same places again. Gu’s models, too, predict no big second waves in New York City or Stockholm, but leave open the possibility of new outbreaks in relatively unaffected areas, just as Hawaii is now fighting outbreaks and New Zealand has imposed a new, short lockdown.

She says she didn’t expect to come up against resistance to her models in the scientific community. While she’s starting to get some attention in the media, she said journal editors told her that her modeling ideas, in preprint, posed the danger of making people feel entitled to relax their vigilance. Maybe the opposite is true, she suggests. Maybe censoring all but the most pessimistic views could discourage action by making the problem seem endless.

The controversy mirrors one that took place a few years ago when renowned cancer researcher Bert Vogelstein dared to suggest that the very nature of cancer had a random element and therefore some people who did everything right would get cancer through bad luck. He was pilloried for the view, not because it was untrue, but because it was deemed a dangerous invitation for people to be bad.

Public health in the United States has a tendency toward moralizing against indulgences. We were told obesity was caused by indulgence in high-fat food even though the evidence pointed elsewhere, and it took years to recognize that opioid addiction is a disease and not a sin. That attitude may be ingrained in the culture, but it shouldn’t get in the way of the search for the truth.

This column does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the editorial board or Bloomberg LP and its owners.

Faye Flam is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist. She has written for the Economist, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Psychology Today, Science and other publications. She has a degree in geophysics from the California Institute of Technology.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/cov...
rationeel
0
quote:

ffff schreef op 17 augustus 2020 12:37:

[...]

Chiddix,

Geloof jij dat allemaal van Quote.....?

Laat ik het voorzichtig stellen: Ik heb Quote toch al wat keren op beweringen zien maken, die, volgens mij, niet hard te maken zijn, die volgens mij verzonnen zijn.

Hoe weet Quote het vermogen van Nina Brink? Is ze daarom naar het buitenland verhuisd om haar vermogen toch door Quote te laten publiceren....? Quote moet zijn blad ook vol krijgen...
Roddel tantes en ooms;)
rationeel
0
quote:

FatCool schreef op 17 augustus 2020 12:57:

Covid Spread Can’t Only Be Explained by Who’s Being ‘Bad’

(Bloomberg Opinion) -- There are some weird things going on in the coronavirus data. It’s curious that cases dropped so fast, and have stayed pretty low, in the spring hot zones — New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. And why did cases remain so low in Idaho and Hawaii until recently?

The mainstream narrative is that it’s all about good behavior when cases go down — mask wearing and giving up our social lives for the greater good. And conversely, bad behavior must be what makes them go up. We talk about certain regions having the virus “under control,” as if falling cases are purely a matter of will-power. A sort of moral reasoning is filling in for evidence.

But why, then, have cases plummeted in Sweden, where mask wearing is a rarity?

This is the time to use scientific methods to understand what’s happening. The pandemic has gone on long enough to reveal patterns in the way it spreads. If it’s all about behavior, that’s a testable hypothesis. If, as a few speculate, dramatic drops in some places have something to do with growing immunity in the population, we can also turn that into a testable hypothesis.

“The issue with data is one can manipulate it to show anything you want if you have an agenda,” says YouYang Gu, an independent data scientist. Cherry picking is easy — prediction is much harder, and Gu is getting some attention for the fact that models he’s been creating since April actually forecast what’s happened with the spread of the disease in the U.S.

He recently took to Twitter to urge public health officials to apply scientific thinking. He pointed to data on Louisiana, where cases were rising earlier in the summer and seemed to level off after various counties issued mask mandates.

But breaking the data down by county, he says, revealed a different story. Mask mandates varied in their timing, but places that implemented them late saw no more cases or deaths than those that did so early. “I don’t think there’s currently enough evidence to support the fact that recent policy interventions (mask mandates, bar closures) were the main drivers behind the recent decrease in cases,” he wrote.

That’s not to say that individual behavior doesn’t matter a lot — and the cancellation of big gatherings and other potential super-spreading events is more important than ever — but there may be more factors than we know driving the bigger picture.

A few scientists are examining the possibility that previously hard-hit areas are now being affected by a buildup of immunity, even if it flies in the face of the widespread understanding that the disease has to run through at least 60% of the population to achieve so-called herd immunity. (So far, antibody tests show only some 10-20% of the U.S. population has had the disease.)

The term herd immunity is a little vague in this context. It was created to characterize the impact of immunization. It refers to the percentage of the population that must get immunized in order for a pathogen to die out — a quantity that depends on the nature of the virus, the efficacy of the vaccine and the behavior of the hosts. If natural immunity is starting to help in some places, that would suggest herd immunity is a reasonable and worthy goal of an immunization program.

But scientists have little experience applying herd immunity to a natural infection, and what understanding they have is changing. Scientists have started to investigate the possibility that there’s another critical factor here — heterogeneity in the way humans interact, and in our inherent, biological susceptibility to this disease.

In a Science paper published in June, University of Stockholm mathematician Tom Britton and colleagues calculated that herd immunity might be reached after as few as 43% of a very heterogenous population becomes infected. People mix unevenly in a way that could lead to little pockets of immunity, slowing the spread of the virus long before the world achieves herd immunity.

We may also be heterogeneous in our biology. A recent paper in Science suggests that many people who’ve never been infected with SARS-CoV-2 carry a kind of immune cell, called a T-cell, which recognizes this novel virus and may partially mitigate an infection. These cells may be left over from infections with related viruses — the coronaviruses that cause the common cold.

While scientists who authored the paper warn that it doesn’t imply that people with pre-existing T-cells can’t get infected, they leave open the possibility that it might account for some of the vast variability in symptoms.

Whatever the source of this heterogeneity, we know it exists. Most people on the contaminated cruise ship Diamond Princess remained uninfected, while others got asymptomatic infections and still others got severely ill.

Those differences can inform disease models, says statistics professor Gabriela Gomes of the University of Strathclyde in Scotland. “What we see is that infections do not occur at random, but that people who are most susceptible to infection get exposed first,” she says, leaving a pool of ever-less susceptible people behind.

So far, her predictions of the spread in the U.K., Belgium, Spain and Portugal have aligned well with reality. Her models showed small, shallow second peaks that would concentrate away from the places where the pandemic was most rampant last spring. For example, in Spain, the first outbreak was around Madrid, and now a smaller outbreak is happening around Catalonia.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/cov...
Gemoraliseer is het OUDE en het NIEUWE normaal.

Pleidooi voor NORMAAL:)
luchtschip
0

Eric trump op twitter :

.
Donald Trump Boat Parade today in Clearwater, Florida!!!!!

video 1:32 minuut.
twitter.com/EricTrump/status/12948070...

Ja, Eric trump's Oom (broer van zijn vader Donald) is net overleden en dan een triomfantelijke tweet over de boat aarde ter ere van zijn vader.

Ook in Portland, Oregon een Trump boat parade :

Trump boat parade overtakes the Willamette River in Portland, OR and sinks nearby families boat

video 1:06 minuut
twitter.com/jimirosenk/status/1295130...
luchtschip
0
quote:

luchtschip schreef op 17 augustus 2020 16:53:

Eric trump op twitter :

.
Donald Trump Boat Parade today in Clearwater, Florida!!!!!

video 1:32 minuut.
twitter.com/EricTrump/status/12948070...

Ja, Eric trump's Oom (broer van zijn vader Donald) is net overleden en dan een triomfantelijke tweet over de boat aarde ter ere van zijn vader.

Ook in Portland, Oregon een Trump boat parade :

Trump boat parade overtakes the Willamette River in Portland, OR and sinks nearby families boat

video 1:06 minuut
twitter.com/jimirosenk/status/1295130...
Per ongeluk gepost op het corona draadje.
Was voor Trump draadje bestemd.

excuses.
luchtschip
0


Willem Engel, Waanzinnige des Vaderlands, kondigt vanaf Fuerteventura aan dat de viruswaanzinnigen in georganiseerd verband langs alle teststations in Nederland zullen gaan, om mensen voorlichting te geven over het gevaar van testen.

1/x
Het gevaar is namelijk dat als je positief test, je de mensen om je heen misschien wel verplicht om in quarantaine te gaan. Dit volgens het evangelie van Willem.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1295091445...

rationeel
0
DEN HAAG - Scholen moeten voor 1 oktober aan hun leraren en leerlingen laten weten of de ventilatie in hun gebouwen op orde is. Minister Slob (Onderwijs) heeft daarnaast een Landelijk Coördinatieteam Ventilatie op Scholen ingesteld.

De eerste scholen gingen in het noorden en andere delen van het land vanaf maandag weer open. De komende weken volgt de rest van het land, ondanks zorgen over ventilatie in de scholen en hoe corona zich daardoor mogelijk door de gebouwen kan verspreiden. Maar scholen hebben terwijl ze al open zijn nog wel even de tijd om te controleren of ze hun ventilatiezaken wel op orde hebben.

De eerste scholen gingen in het noorden en andere delen van het land vanaf maandag weer open. De komende weken volgt de rest van het land, ondanks zorgen over ventilatie in de scholen en hoe corona zich daardoor mogelijk door de gebouwen kan verspreiden. Maar scholen hebben terwijl ze al open zijn nog wel even de tijd om te controleren of ze hun ventilatiezaken wel op orde hebben.

Minister Slob schrijft aan de Kamer dat ze daar uiterlijk 1 oktober hun personeel en de leerlingen over moeten inlichten. Veel scholen zijn dat volgens hem al nagegaan, ook al is nog niet duidelijk bij hoeveel scholen de ventilatie wel oké is.

Informatiepunt
Om de gemoederen gerust te stellen heeft Slob wel een coördinatieteam opgericht, met aan het roer oud-vakbondsvoorman Doekle Terpstra. Er komt ook een centraal punt waar scholen informatie over ventilatie op scholen kunnen vinden en vragen kunnen stellen. Daarvoor wordt de al bestaande site weeropschool.nl uitgebreid.

www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/420374190/slo...
Beperktedijkbewaking
1
quote:

rationeel schreef op 17 augustus 2020 15:22:

[...]
Gemoraliseer is het OUDE en het NIEUWE normaal.

Pleidooi voor NORMAAL:)
Heb je spuit elf ook weer. Besteed zijn dag aan eindeloos copypasten.
Wat hij zelf te berde brengt bestaat slechts uit clichés en platitudes, en getuigt van een zeer naïef wereldbeeld.

Chiddix
0
quote:

ffff schreef op 17 augustus 2020 12:37:

[...]

Chiddix,

Geloof jij dat allemaal van Quote.....?

Laat ik het voorzichtig stellen: Ik heb Quote toch al wat keren op beweringen zien maken, die, volgens mij, niet hard te maken zijn, die volgens mij verzonnen zijn.

Hoe weet Quote het vermogen van Nina Brink? Is ze daarom naar het buitenland verhuisd om haar vermogen toch door Quote te laten publiceren....? Quote moet zijn blad ook vol krijgen...
Verzonnen vermogens of niet door Quote, Nina Brink(Storms) prijkt op plaats.... in de Quote. Zit op de OTC-markt(VS) weer met een sapbedrijf(Natur) op de beurs , dat op de fles is gegaan(2019). Het zit mevrouw tegen maar geen medelijden met iemand die in de Quote staat. Al zou de helft van haar vermogen verzonnen zijn , is het nog een rijke dame. En dat bevalt Pieter Storms(breekijzer) wel.
Chiddix
0
Dagstaat coronavirus: 17-08

VS-5437851(+34638)
Brazilie-3359570(+19373)
India-2702681(+55018)
Rusland-925558(+4839)
Zuid-Afrika-589886(+2541)
Peru-535946(+10143)
Nederland-63484(+482)
Belgie-78534(+211)

Duitsland-226700(+693)
Turkije-250542(+1233)
Singapore-55838(+91)
Italie-254235(+320)
Spanje-359082(+16269)-15, 16 en 17 Augustus
VK-321064(+721)
Zweden-85045(+751)- 15, 16 en 17 Augustus
Frankrijk-256533(+3568) - 16 en 17 Augustus
Chiddix
0
Docenten beweren, dat aerosolen kunnen leiden tot besmetting in klaslokalen maar het RIVM zegt, dat daar geen bewijzen voor zijn.
Op 1 October moeten in alle klaslokalen de systemen(ventilatie) op orde zijn of voorzien zijn(minister Slob).
[verwijderd]
0
Optimism on Covid-19 immunity climbs as studies show antibodies protect and T-cells last longer

Fishing boat study provides first real-life example of antibodies in action

17 August 2020 • 7:00pm

Scientists are growing increasingly confident about the human immune response to SARS-CoV-2 after studies showed antibodies provide “real-world” protection against the virus and cellular immunity may be long-lasting, even in mild cases.

A study of a Covid-19 outbreak on a Seattle fishing boat involving more than 100 sailers has all but proven that antibodies provide protection against re-infection. Meanwhile, an encouraging body of evidence has found that T and B cells remain in the blood even once antibodies fade.

“This is exactly what you would hope for,” Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington and an author on one of the new studies, told The New York Times. “All the pieces are there to have a totally protective immune response.”

“This is very promising,” echoed Smita Iyer, an immunologist at the University of California, Davis “This calls for some optimism about herd immunity, and potentially a vaccine.”

Antibodies have long been thought to protect against reinfection but the first study to use hard real-world evidence was published last week by researchers at the University of Washington.

It tracked the 122 strong crew of a fishing boat operating in the Pacific off the coast of Seattle, Washington. All were tested for both antibodies and the virus before they sailed and after. An outbreak occurred on the vessel and 104 people become infected - an attack rate of 85 per cent.

However, only those without pre-existing antibodies caught the virus. Of the three crew members who had already been exposed to the disease prior to the boat’s departure and had antibodies, none showed evidence of reinfection.

Professor Danny Altmann, of the department of immunology and inflammation at Hammersmith Hospital, Imperial College, said: "While this is a small study, it offers a remarkable, real-life, human experiment at a time when we've been short of hard-line, formal, proof that neutralising antibodies genuinely offer protection from re-infection. In short, it’s good news”.

While the findings are welcome news, key questions remain over the human immune responses to the virus - namely around how long such antibodies last. Most studies show they start to fade after just a few months.

However, there is mounting evidence that T cells and B cells, often described as “memory cells”, provide longer-lasting protection.

It was widely reported last month that researchers at the Karolinska University Hospital and University Hospital of Wales had found that people who recovered from asymptomatic or mild cases of Covid-19 may have long-term T-cell immunity against severe infection.

Similarly, another Seattle-based study published just last week found that patients who had recovered from mild forms of the virus had developed SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies and neutralizing plasma, as well as virus-specific memory B and T cells.

These “memory cells” not only persisted but in some cases increased numerically over the three months following symptom onset.

According to the study, the T cells multiplied upon re-encounter with the virus, while the B cells expressed receptors “capable of neutralising the virus”.

As such, the authors claim that the findings demonstrate that even mild Covid-19 can elicit memory cells that provide protective immunity.

www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/sci...
Chiddix
0
De verwachting voor 2020 is -5% economische groei. De teller staat nu op -10%(eerste halfjaar).
rationeel
1
quote:

Beperktedijkbewaking schreef op 18 augustus 2020 02:46:

[...]Heb je spuit elf ook weer. Besteed zijn dag aan eindeloos copypasten.
Wat hij zelf te berde brengt bestaat slechts uit clichés en platitudes, en getuigt van een zeer naïef wereldbeeld.

Totaal geen gevoel voor humor.

Je hebt een ander wereldbeeld? Dat kan.

Geen reden voor scapegoating.

Ja, ik stel iets aan de orde. Dat bevalt je niet?

Misschien is het je oude dag? Midden in de nacht onwel gevoelens?

Ik zou zeggen houd er mee op, met je op mij af te reageren, want je verlaagt je er mee tot een niveau dat je niet past.

leek2018
0
rationeel
0
quote:

luchtschip schreef op 17 augustus 2020 21:55:

Willem Engel, Waanzinnige des Vaderlands, kondigt vanaf Fuerteventura aan dat de viruswaanzinnigen in georganiseerd verband langs alle teststations in Nederland zullen gaan, om mensen voorlichting te geven over het gevaar van testen.

1/x
Het gevaar is namelijk dat als je positief test, je de mensen om je heen misschien wel verplicht om in quarantaine te gaan. Dit volgens het evangelie van Willem.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1295091445...

Het gaat over zijn mening dat de tests niet aangeven wat zij pretenderen aan te geven.

Hij heeft onderbouwde kritiek op het testen, en het gebruik dat er van die gegevens wordt gemaakt.

Waarom de persoon zo denigrerend aanvallen.

Houd de discussie bij het onderwerp. Word er zinvol getest, of is het testen slechts de volgende aanzet tot bangmakerij, en dictatoriale maatregelen.
rationeel
0
quote:

leek2018 schreef op 18 augustus 2020 09:19:

Gezien het aantal posts gisteren, lijkt het hier wel een Haags draadje.
Noem je den HAAG, dan denk ik aan onlusten;)
rationeel
0
quote:

Chiddix schreef op 18 augustus 2020 08:05:

Docenten beweren, dat aerosolen kunnen leiden tot besmetting in klaslokalen maar het RIVM zegt, dat daar geen bewijzen voor zijn.
Op 1 October moeten in alle klaslokalen de systemen(ventilatie) op orde zijn of voorzien zijn(minister Slob).
Dat klinkt niet als een eenduidig beleid.

De ventilatie moet in orde zijn? Hoe in orde?
Ik heb zelf inmiddels bij ter zake deskundigen geinformeerd, hoe dat eruit zou moeten zien.
Van oude scholen weet ik dat ze helemaal geen ventilatiesysteem hebben, maar gelukkig nog wel ramen die open kunnen;)
Je mag niet van onderwijzend personeel op kleuterscholen en Lagere scholen verwachten, dat zij zelfs maar bij gesproken zijn over wat ons inmiddels bezig houdt over luchtkwaliteit. Dat zijn specifiek de virussen die besmetting kunnen veroorzaken.

Die moeten uit de lucht gehaald worden.

Dat verder de luchtkwaliteit van scholen ook heel veel te wensen over laat, is een onaanvaardbare zaak, maar dat is nu niet in de eerste plaats waar de aandacht naar uit zal moeten gaan.

Wat je verwacht van de regering, is dat die zich ook even heeft geinformeerd, hoe het probleem moet worden aangepakt, en die informatie vast legt en de scholen verplicht daaraan te voldoen.
leek2018
1
quote:

rationeel schreef op 18 augustus 2020 09:23:

[...]

Noem je den HAAG, dan denk ik aan onlusten;)
Ja, de Schilderswijk, maar dat is al jarenlang een probleemwijk, ook toen de voertaal nog puur "Haagsch" was en "gekleurde mensen".deze wijk beter konden mijden. En ja, nu is het precies andersom. De sfeer is hetzelfde, alleen de poppetjes zijn totaal verschillend.
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